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May 21, 2006

Comments

Keepin' it real

Ok, first off I think it's getting real old, real fast to constantly dump on Euro players . . . Sure some are pretty good, and some are pretty bad. For every Darko, there's a Sam Bowie, so if this is a real site about "the association", and you guys want to be taken seriously, you should start looking at facts. By the way, Ginobli in last year's finals against the Pistons had this line: 8-13, 2-2 3pt, 5-5 ft, 5 rb, 4 asts, 1 stl, 3 TOs. Let me also remind this site that KG, who is an American, constantly disappears in the 4th quarter as Mr. Kwasniewski likes to point out. In other words, what's the point of this site . . . ? So Toni Kukoc was trash in the 4th quarter? Kobe Bryant in LA's last finals line was: 7-21 fg, 0-2 3pts, 10-11 fts, 3 rbs, 4 asts, 1 stl 3 Tos. I guess this site is correct when they say Euros can't play. Another side note, in 2003 when the Spurs played New Jersey, Duncan's line who happens to be considered a Euro had this line: 9-19 fgs, 0-1 3pts, 3-5 fts, 20 rbs, 10 asts, 4 TOs and 8 blks. Not bad for a Euro. I'm just Keepin' it Real.

mrnoname

^^^ I'm with you...but don't bother arguing with Mr. Kwasniewski, he's got some kind of blinders on.

It's the Internet, you can post whatever you want but this takes the title of "most obnoxious post ever". You may well be a huge bball fan but "intelligent NBA commentary" is very misleading.

Emmett

^y'all need a sense of humour.....fuckin Euros, man....

Brett

Alright, first to respond to those who are ripping the author:

Keepin' it real: No one said that Euros like Ginobili or Duncan suck, we just dont' like them or their style of play.

mrnoname: Based on your multiple comments, you are simply a Spurs fan with blinders on. Again, we aren't saying Euros suck, we just don't like them.

As for the Lebron love fest, it is actually well deserved. The guy came into the league with the most hype since Shaq, and he is actually exceeding all expectations. Hard to believe, considering the hyoe was so big that his high school games were televised on ESPN. I'm more of a Pistons' fan, but damn Lebron was good in this series and it's scary to think what's in store for him in the future.

And Craig, I would have gone with the picture of the newly released video of the plane crashing into the Pentagon. Though it was most likely faked.

Craig

WOW! I struck a nerve with the Euro defenders.

"Another side note, in 2003 when the Spurs played New Jersey, Duncan's line who happens to be considered a Euro"

One simple question:

Who the hell considers Tim Duncan a Euro? You're sounding like sportstalk radio by creating your own argument.

The last I checked, the Virgin Islands MAY fall in the Caribbean. But that's just me.

Well here's a link for all you Euro fans:

https://www.nba.com/uk/european_wallpapers.html

(I give cause I care!)

BTW - Much like Jordan's Bullets era, the 2003 NBA Finals did not exist! Noby outside the swamps of New Jersey and the swamps of San Antonio watched it. Like I said, it did not exist.

Keepin' it Real

It's nice to get some good feedback on some well deserved criticism. Virgin Islands are not the US, therefore, they must not be able to play real basketball, according to this site. Again, for every Euro that can't play, there are 10 more American born players that are worse . . .

Craig

Keepin' it Real...

Is that you Chad Ford?

If you've been reading up on us you'll realize that what bothers us a lot is the NBA marketing (hype). From stadium entertainment (Celtic's Slamrocks, mascots of any kind, ridiculous PA guys), over-hyped news items (identifying players as "the Frenchman Tony Parker" or "the Argentinean Andres Nocioni"), money grabbing promotions (multiple alternate jerseys), the WNBA (do I really have to explain); they all get to us.

Now there's been a few decent European players. Toni Kukoc to this day is still a good baller. He was a big reason for Milwaukee's lone playoff victory.

My issue is with the Chad Fords of this world and their over-hyping of Euro ballers.

Look at the Euroleague Final Four...

https://www.euroleague.net/finalfour06/noticia.jsp?temporada=E05&jornada=24&id=554&id2=555

When you glance at each roster you recognize a lot of college players from a few years back. Maccabi Tel Aviv's three best players are from the States (Anthony Parker, Maceo Baston, Willie Solomon). I remember watching Baston in college. He wasn't that great of a player, just an above-average big at Michigan. Yet somehow he played a big role in a near three-peat in the Euroleague Final Four (2004 and 2005 champs and a final loss to CSKA this season).

Yet, at every draft the NBA passes on players like Anthony Parker and Maceo Baston to draft on some wispy 6'10" white guy from Slovenia who has a ton of "upside" (translation: he's white and can hit 22 foot jump shots based on Zapruder Film-quality scouting videos).

Tell me what a Zoran Planinic or Jiri Welsch or Nikoloz Tskitishvili can do that some of these above average college ballers can't do. The NBA scouting no longer factors gamers (career winners) and instead they go for raw long-shots. The Bulls went against this trend when drafting Heinrich and Gordon, both smallish players who just simply know how to win. But they did go for Andres Nocioni who plays the more aggressive/active South American style of hoops (like Ginobili and Varejao).

I agree there are a ton of bad players from the states. But you have to agree that most European players tend to shy from contact and fade when the game's on the line. Kukoc and Drazen Petrovic were a few who WANTED the ball in the fourth quarters, but we also know how players Peja Stojakovic and Vlade Divac fare when crunch time comes round.

basketbawful

Argentina didn't get relocated to Europe, did it? I missed that, although I'm not very good with geography. I only know that Mexico is up and Canada is, what, to the left? Aw, who cares. America RAWKS!!

Anyway, I'm curious what you think was lucky about the Spurs 1999 championship? That is was a lockout-shortened season? Everybody played the same number of games. And whether you play 50 or 82, every team has the same chance to succeed. In fact, it can be argued that it was better for most teams, since less wear and tear would mean more healthy players.

And the Spurs ended up with the best record in the league, and they went 15-2 in the playoffs. Nothing lucky there. Unless you're making the arguement (and I hope you aren't) that "If the Bulls hadn't been broken up, they would have won another one." Because I seriously don't think so. Their time was over, whether the team was dismantled or not.

P.S. Are you SURE you don't hate Lebron? Just a little?

Keepin' it Real

Let me be the first to say that I believe most Euro players selected early in the draft are based purely on myth, I mean hype. What I don't get is, if the NBA is going to survive and thrive, it is in the best interest of the NBA to look for talent everywhere. To tap the market and get players from other countries to make the other countries interested in the game, by all means, means absolutely nothing to the non-US countries. I agree with you completely that the NBA has probably hyped up these players way too much, but again, need I remind you of Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry? Can you say the worst draft ever, and the players were all US born and they all play weak? I know you're a Laker fan, so all I can say is look at that roster and tell me you wouldn't want a foreign player like a Barbosa, or Nocioni. I'm not a Euro fan by any means, I just love basketball. Drazen was the man when he played. Don't forget Detlef also. If the talent isn't there, the talent isn't there, regardless of where they were born. Start talking about basketball. I remember when the site was informative and funny. Don't you guys have anything else to talk about? Just keepin' it real.

Craig

"Are you SURE you don't hate Lebron? Just a little?"

Seriously, I like the guy. I just hate the hype that goes with him. How many times do we hear the "HE'S ONLY 21 YEARS OLD!!!" or the "HE'S BETTER THAN MJ'S THIRD YEAR!!!" or the notion that he was carrying the Cavs over the Pistons in games 4 and 5 when it was Pistons' poor execution on offense and their lack of defensive effort down the stretch. Like I said, I'm not a big fan of the NBA hype machines. Don't force it down my throat!

Add in the ESPN bandwagon factor and that was it. Just like last season's NBA Finals, the day after Ginobili dropped 20 plus, the media was screaming, "HE'S ONE OF THE BEST SMALL FORWARDS EVER!!!"

Brett

The Spurs 1999 title may not have been lucky, but I will never recognize it because of the shortened season. You can't discount the lack of interest of most of the teams and the fact that players used the whole season to get in shape.

After all, there's a reason that an 8 seed has never made it to the Finals except in this case (Knicks), so that alone tells me that there was something not right with this season.

basketbawful

"...but I will never recognize it because of the shortened season."

I'm surprised to hear (well, read) you say that, since I consider you something of an NBA purist. Shortened season or no, everybody was on the same footing that year. You can't just start discounting seasons, or championships, based on subjective criteria. Should we discount a couple of the Lakers most recent championships because Shaq only played about 50 games a season, most of which he coasted through...so he could "save himself" for the playoffs? Or maybe we should discount Jordan's last two or three titles, since he essentially took a year and a half vacation between seasons, something NOBODY gets to do in their prime. A burned out Jordan doesn't complete another threepeat without that time away from the game, I guarantee it. Maybe we should put an asterisk next to those titles.

And as for the Knicks, the 8th seed, making the Finals...you know, that Knicks team was only 6 games back on the number one seed in the East that season. If the Bucks, this year's 8th seed, had won 58 games (6 behind the Piston's 64), you wouldn't be as dubious about their chances of making the Finals, would you?

Besides which, strange things happen during the playoffs. Boston was the 4th and last seed in 1969 (back when only four teams in each conference made the playoffs), and they won the title that year. In 1981, the Houston Rockets were the 5th seed when only 6 teams made the playoffs...and they made it to the Finals. And let's not forget 1995, when the 6th seeded Rockets, winners of only 47 games, beat teams that had won 60 (Utah), 59 (Phoenix), 62 (San Antonio), and 57 (Orlando). No 6th seed has ever beaten the top 4 teams in the league before...does that make the season "wrong"? Should we discount it?

Craig

Dammit b-bawful! You're dragging me into this with the comment, "I'm surprised to hear (well, read) you say that, since I consider you something of an NBA purist."

Can't we save some of these point-counterpoint topics for the offseason? (You'll probably see this along with some others in an "archive" post this July or August)

Hey aren't you a Pacer fan and also a closet Utah Jazz fan? You of all people should harbor some frustration at the 1999 season. Without a strike we most definitely would have seen a Jazz-Pacers final.

At first I thought you were just playing devil's advocate, but it looks like you are opposed to "the asterisk."

Strike shortened seasons should always have an asterisk attached to any records and championships. I'll use a few examples:

I am a huge Chicago Bears fan who will never acknowledge the 1987 strike-shortened title holder. (it might be the Redskins, but who cares!)

Talent-wise, the Bears were the best team in the league. Two games into the season they rolled the defending champs in NY and beat Tampa Bay in week 2. Then came the strike with the scab players.

After a few weeks of frustration from the strike, coach Ditka made the mistake of referring to the scab players as his "real" players, a move which angered the true Bears out on strike. This turned out to be a wound that would not heal easily or quickly in the months to come.

Ditka lost some of the loyalty from the players that season along with effort. They lost to an inferior Redskins team in the playoffs.

My point? With strike-shortened seasons, there are many teams that suffer inner turmoil that can't be cured during the season. Bitterness lingers and ends up conquering talent.

Now let's go back to the 1999 NBA season. This was a truly unique season. Most of the players (minus the Pacers and Jazz who were conducting informal workouts) became woefully out of shape. The strike alone ruined the careers of Vin Baker and Shawn Kemp, who both were embarrassingly fat and lazy the entire season and turned to substance abuse. Many players believed the season would be scrapped. Other players (while sporting the hilarious fake glasses to look smart (Mourning)) were bitter at losing their battle with management.

So the season starts in February. They schedule an unprecedented 50 games in three months. To fit in the schedule teams played 4 to 5 games a week with three games in a row many times. The demanding schedule along with poor conditioning and poor attitude was very taxing on the bodies of many players. Stats dropped and well as the quality of play. Veteran teams were hurt by the schedule as there were very few off-days.

Then came the "anyone can win" attitude that many teams took. Some GM's scrambled to make trades for the missing piece to a championship. Take the Lakers with GM Jerry West: they took a gamble on Dennis Rodman, fired their coach Del Harris and made a monster deal for Glen Rice all for the notion that "anything can happen." They along with other teams failed to recognize the lack of practice time to incorporate a new coach or new players. All the deals backfired.

Now look at the 8th seed and NBA Finalist New York Knicks. You said that they were only 6 games behind the number one seeded Miami. After reading "Just Ballin' : The Chaotic Rise of the New York Knicks" and watching many of their games (as NBC televised most of their season for quick fix ratings) the fact that they rallied to make the playoffs along was a miracle. There was a ton of turmoil within the team and they lacked overall consistency losing a lot of questionable games.

As I mentioned, the poor regular season play kept the final standings closer than if an entire season was played.

Now look at the playoffs: The second round wasn't all that competitive. 3 of the 4 match-ups ended in sweeps with only Utah-Portland going six. Many teams gave up at the first sign of trouble (Lakers, Portland, Atlanta, 76ers,) as though they were glad to get the season over with (especially the Lakers).

The Spurs benefitted from the fact that they made no moves during the season and got hot at the right time of the season.

With all the unique factors going on, you can't compare 1999 with any other season in the history on the NBA.

And no, I am not one of those who say, "If the Bulls hadn't been broken up, they would have won another one."

The Bulls barely beat the Pacers in 1998 and would have lost to Indy if a full 1999 season was played.

(Give me some credit here!)

So as my personal god and savior (Phil Jackson) once said, give the 1999 Spurs an asterisk.

(A side note: 1999 was one of my favorite seasons. There were games on all the time. All the Lakers' turmoil made the season very fun to experience. Plus I drank copious amounts of alcohol when I went to the games at the Forum. The next season Phil Jackson came along, the Lakers moved to Staples Center, I purchased season tickets and the Lakers won the title)

Dirk#41Grippin'Grain

CRASH to you, ya douche. So much for "The Mavs have no chance to win Monday night", eh?

Craig

This douche is happy to be wrong about that prediction. If you read our site, you'd see that we hate the Spurs!

Dirk#41Grippin'Grain

Well, I was just linked here, so I'll definitely start checking it out. Anyone that hates the Spurs can't be too douche-y!

Just sayin tho mang, you shoulda believed!

basketbawful

"Can't we save some of these point-counterpoint topics for the offseason? (You'll probably see this along with some others in an "archive" post this July or August)"

You're right. We should be saving these topics for the long, cold, empty off-season. We should make a list of possible topics and start developing the articles.

Johnny Plethera

Come on Craig, I read the crash piece and it seems you already counted the Mavs out for game 7 in San Antonio. You didn't think they could win? I thought they could win and sure enough they pulled it off.

Of course I could see how you would think that way. It seems every force possible was acting in a way to ensure that there would be a Spurs - Pistons rematch in the finals. But sometimes you gotta show some love for the under dog.

Madanmohan

nooo my idol is a 2 time mvp, a gold medalist, mutlpile all star appearances and mvps and a future hall of famer, and ur looking up someone in youtube that u dont even like just so you can comment on videos all day, what does that say about you? dipshit!

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